Proposal #13: CISV Devils is exclusive.
I propose that CISV devils is renamed to something less provocative. Furthermore it should be integrated into the forums on the CISV friends website.
Rational
1) The name is purely provocative and will lead to misunderstandings in other languages and cultures.
2) CISV devils is a purely inclusive discussion forum for "JB-graduates" and beyond reach for ordinary juniors. Therefore it is unrelated to IJB and should be moved elsewhere.
Nick (Germany)
17 Comments:
I posted the proposal above myself representing criticism I have received indirectly form a number of sources. Obviously I strongly disagree with the proposal, but first of all, let me say that I am sad, that I haven't been involved in this discussion in the first place. I merely received a few notes from James that there were concerns about the website. Not being a junior anymore, nor on any of the IJR/reco e-mail lists completely excluded me from this conversation, and this even though it should be obvious that the website was set up by me. I wish somebody had asked me about my thoughts and ideas behind the project, or suggested changes directly to me instead of fueling an extremely exclusive discussion behind my back. Not only I was left out, also anybody else enjoying the devils website did not have a chance to contribute. That's why I posted this proposal here.
One of the main motivations for the CISV devils page, which can be read on the "about" page, was to include more people in the discussion. One of the core concepts of CISV devils is to "reach a broad audience", so how in the world can you claim the project exclusive? Sorry for my cynicism, but has the definition of exclusion gone so far to call a soccer club exclusive, because it doesn't offer tennis? CISV Devils is for people "who love to discuss and develop ideas" and of course implicitly, people, who know the "CISV scene". So, yes, CISV devils is not super-inclusive. But it is super-available to everybody, which leads me to my next point.
I created CISV Devils, not as an open discussion forum, but more as an "edited magazine of ideas". Nobody can post directly to the website, and all comments are monitored by myself. However, I have not rejected a single proposal, not deleted a comment until now. I have though, changed the wording and layout of a few proposals to make them easier to understand, and published them with the authors consent. This concept of an "edited", yet public forum is completely different than one behind the firewalls of CISV friends. The discussion forum on CISV friends is a pain to access - you have to bypass a password login, a legal disclaimer, a clumpsy navigation, comments in tiny fonts, to finally get to the last point in the discussion. CISV devils is openly and easily availabe to everybody with it's blog-like structure - you can even e-mail a particular post or put yourself on the list to subscribe to new proposals. Integrating CISV Devils into the CISV friends forum is definetly not an option. CISV Devils started on my private website, and the IJRs offered to host it on ijb.cisv.org. If this is a concern, I have no problem in moving it back to my own server.
The name of the website derives from "the devils advocate", and english idiom describing a person, who deliberately takes a position in a discussion that represents the opposite of what he stands for - bascially exactly what I did today by posting the proposal above. Chellenging your own positions is healthy, and I would like to encourage this inside CISV - that is why I believe the name is very suitable. But if you like, also CISV Devils could go through a rebranding procedure :).
How does CISV devils relate to IJB? I highly recommend reading James Schaffers's article in the IJB newsletter about a year ago titled "What is JB?". Two o the main goals he mentioned are "building a community" and "skills training" Both things, I had in mind when creating CISV devils. Something that James doesn't mention in his article is IJBs contribution to CISV as a whole. I think most people agree that on international level, IJB and especially the IJRs have contributed to CISV's development in seeing the big picture, being the voice of the youth and catalysing CISV's adaptation to a modern world. Exactly this is the point where IJB and CISV Devils meet. It is surely not a co-incidence that the people who are conributing most on the CISV devils site have passed the "legal JB" age, but they continue the "spirit" of IJB. I like the idea, that CISV devils should be connected to ODC - but then, how much is it connected to IJB, other than a link from the website and the specific URL?' Again, as mentioned on the "about" page, I hope that official structures will pick up any CISV devils ideas - not necessarily the structure.
Finally, let me say, that in a way I also feel happy and honoured. I admit that CISV devils was meant to be provocative and uncomfortable. It is part of the concept that CISV devils proposals challenge basic principles of CISV, something some people may not be too happy about. I'm sorry if feelings indeed have been hurt, but nobody has directly contacted me in this matter until today. I also wish that people take the courage to challenge the proposals offered here in return. That's what the website is all about. I was worried that nobody had taken notice of my CISV devils project, but the criticism I received today prove the contrary.
CISV Devils is still an experiment, and until today I am not sure how it will continue. The number of people contributing are very little, the number of people reading any of the proposals is also probably quite small. Besides possibly hurting feelings, I wish the website also had a positive impact on CISV's development. I am unsure if the work I put into CISV Devils is really worth it. Maybe even CISV Devils will go away very soon. Any ideas to improve the CISV Devils project are more than welcome.
Thank you. Nick.
(nick.trautmann@de.cisv.org)
As every new initiatives, also CISV devils will take time to affirm itself in the CISV ecosystem, but I'm confindent of its impact.
I'm sure that in the next couple of years many of the proposal which are now on the website will be submitted in the form of motion at the board of trustees.
On another prospective, I'm starting to "hate" the concept of exclusion: shall we freeze all CISV any time somebody might feel excluded?
Don't forget that exclusion is CISV is most of the time a personal feeling, rather than a real situation created must a group of people.
Stop with the goodism!
I just wanted to say, that I'm very happy that the CISV Devils, is here to gather the ideas that we talk about over coffee at AIM anyway - this way it is accesable for more people! If people have a problem with the idea, maybe it would also be a good idea to take the time to explain, instead of killig a great idea...
My support for Devils - as most good ideas comes out of critical thinking - witch it something we as an organisation is promotion through at least Summer Camp!
I just wanted to say, that I'm very happy that the CISV Devils, is here to gather the ideas that we talk about over coffee at AIM anyway - this way it is accesable for more people! If people have a problem with the idea, maybe it would also be a good idea to take the time to explain, instead of killing a great idea...
About the name - I really don't mind either if...
My support for Devils - as most good ideas comes out of critical thinking - witch it something we as an organisation is promotion through at least Summer Camp!
Thank you Nick for posting this discussion. When I first came across the site I had similar critiques to those you have pointed out -- and that the site seemed to be another example of things that are wrong with CISV . . . too much discussion of administrative items and not enough focus on our core mission and objectives as an organization.
However, CISV needs a provocative discussion to get it thinking about the future. The re-branding process was interesting -- there were significant diffferences between how CISVers view the organization and how others outside CISV understand the organization. Maybe CISV's organizational culture itself is self-destructive. Too often we refuse to have difficult discussions about what we are doing and why . . . instead we focus on whether we need another RE-CO or task force, etc. There are many talented people who give too much time in CISV to bureacracy rather than programming. In the meantime, many individuals get burned out, especially at the local levels of the organization.
Maybe my feelings also come from my own experience in CISV. A number of years ago I pulled back after being very involved. Most of my CISV friends stopped communicating with me. Some felt as if I had betrayed the organization. With others, we realized that we had very little in common outside of CISV. I think CISV is a great idea and I'm happy to contribute time and energy to its programs, but I'm not about to make it my life. CISV has had a tremendous influence on who I am, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that I am.
So, in this spirit I think CISV Devils has some great potential. What is CISV really there for? What should it being doing with its resources? Why are people involved? What can we be doing better?
One short comment from me...
I don't think that CISV Devils in itself is an exclusive concept. I appreciate how it allows people to think about AND share anything that comes to mind. I think that its theoretical design has the power or potential to be very, very inclusive.
However, I do agree with the observation that it is usually the CISV or IJB "experts" that end up posting proposals or making comments in CISV Devils. (This is actually my first comment on CISV Devils.)
I don't think it is because of a flaw in the reasoning behind the Devils project. Speaking from personal experience, I think it might be because some people may not be familiar / comfortable enough with certain topics (like hosting fees, etc.) to understand and contribute, and this might scare them off from coming back and watching things proceed on CISV Devils.
What if authors of proposals could provide links to information about certain concepts, ideas, etc.? Those who aren't familiar with, say, hosting fees could click on a link to a document or something that contains the definition of hosting fees, while the "experts" simply skip it.
About changing the name - I got the allusion to "Devil's Advocate" but I do understand how people could be uncomfortable with the name "CISV Devils" vs. "CISV Devil's Advocates". I don't mind either sticking with Devils or changing the name, but I think (channeling the spirit of rebranding) clarity in a name would be very much appreciated.
I also think that CISV Devils should be hosted publicly and not on CISV Friends, where one has to go through all the password/username blahooey.
I believe in this forum; it provides an open space to discuss any idea one might feel like posting.
Now of course, it is more than just discussing "an" idea, but ideas who are somewhat difficult to digest for some, and exactly what was needed for others. I believe in the controversy that the forum offers, because I believe that (some) good things come out of conflict and there is for sure a lot of good coming out from skeptical thinking and detail-focusing.
There are ideas and "institutions" that are challenged through discussions; and this is often not appreciated by everyone.
However, I think the discussions held here are, in its majority, discussions that not everyone is able to follow-up. And I think this is something that is somewhat making people unconfortable and (maybe) jealous.
Why jealous? Because there are some who can discuss about certain topics and others that might be afraid to issue their "less-smart" arguments. I have heard of some people who don't want to write in this blog because they are afraid of their (apparent) limited knowledge.
I think on this point, people could tend to go to the IJRs and ask them about the page, and while I think people who know Nick could go directly to him; we have to accept the fact that to a new JBer, this might only be a IJB page and not Nick's idea, JUST because it is linked to the IJB website.
I think this blog ITSELF is definitely NOT exclusive; however, some of the topics that are dealt here require certain knowledge that not so many people have (or they think they don't have) and if there are ways to expand that knowledge so more people feel comfortable joining in the discussion, so be it.
I have applauded this forum from its beginning, and although I cannot see it too often myself, I believe in what could be done in these "cyber-beer-coffeechats" who, incidentally have at least more eyes and ears than any other in any AIM I have been to (so cheers to that!).
I challenge everyone reading this comment to practise critical thinking; I don't think anyone is born with a more critical mind than others, nor I think that the people who regularly write in this blog are necessarily smarter than others who don't; it is a matter of exercise and conflictive spirit!
This is actually my first addition to the page. And I would like to say I adore and support CISV devils © website.
There have already been some wise words said in this discussion
- Talking about Exclusion getting carried away
- That these discussions would have only taken place in coffee breaks, and this is just opening it up to everyone (which I think it is, and I think is wonderful)
- It has the potential to be very inclusive (Which I totally agree with), even though I have never contributed to these discussions, I have read them, and feel ‘included’ in that respect. I feel assure that these discussion are taking place (even though I don’t agree with some of what is said), It’s a nice feeling to know that people are thinking, and pushing the ideas in our organisation in a creative way, which will inevitably have a positive effect.
One unattractive feature of the ‘CISV devils’ is that so few people contribute ( I realise the hypocrisy in the fact that this is my first comment), that it has the image of a club for ‘IJB graduates’, but if this is how it will be, I still feel comfortable with that. At the end of the day, the people discussing here know a lot about the organisation, some of them really have ‘been there, done it, seen the movie and got the tshirt’ which is why I am always interested in their views. At the end of the day, they are only views. Not motions, not change. My view on that is: let them play. Maybe one day I will ‘play in the CISV devils ’playground, Admittedly in the past I have held back a couple times, thinking ‘nah I don’t know enough about it’. Not in a bad way, but in the same way I would never contribute to quantum physics discussion in dutch. (but maybe on a smaller scale). I hope if CISV devils only has 4 people contributing, it will still continue. It is my belief that in the past the greatest things that have come out of CISV have been from small discussions, tight friendships and ‘exclusive’ discussion over coffee or a beer.
I am happy to see a link on the IJB website, as I think that the 2 are directly linked. When I was making a powerpoint for EJB (European Junior Branch) this easter I was motivated by recalling the influence past junior’s ideas have had, and I think that this concept should only be encouraged in IJB. I am happy to see the blog from the IJRs reiterating this.
My conclusion: we shouldn’t be evaluating CISV devils position, but promoting the use of it more.
Thanks Nick for making this website! I think its ace
I believe that CISV Devils is one of the most important things created in order to provide free open minded discussions about ANY CISV issue.
If the current discussions are too elaborated, that happens because the people who are posting the messages like/enjoy this kind of discussion. I can guarantee that Nick didn't censured any discussion proposal for being "too simple"
I just can feel sorry if someone is offended by the name of the site, by the language spoken (?!) or by the elaborated content of the discussions... And I believe that the IJRs are free to support any initiative like that, even if the discussions are held in portuguese, chinese or latin, even if the topics are just about camp situations or if instead of a name we have a picture or a symbol that can have a thousant different meanings...
The real important thing is what we get from it, and in this specific case we are getting great discussions, excellent ideas and probably some effective proposals for the development of the organization.
Hey Friends,
I'm also here to speak up for CISV Devils. I agree with everything all of you said, and would like to add that, for me, CISV Devils is the probably the most interesting and relevant intelectual experience I've had in the organizational part of CISV.
It is one of the main reasons I continue working as much as I do.
I agree that it makes sense to try not to level down the discussions, but to provide information and tools for more people to participate and understand what happens on this forum.
I also think that this page has everything-to-do with JB and it makes me very happy to see it directly connected and in IJB Webpage's frontpage. This forum is the closest IJB ever got from being a relevant think-tank for CISV.
As a (very) frequent reader and participant, I'm really willing to help out on spreading the word about this page and making it more known and with more participants.
Let us not allow ourselves to get into an exclusion-paranoia. That's not the purpose of bringing this issue up.
As much as I am frightened of the mad CISV knowledge that floats around these discussions, I see the light in the sense that a discussion is only as interesting as the diversity of the people who contribute. Promoting at least the reading of CISV devils to I guess what have been dubbed "everyday juniors" I believe brings this "higher level of CISV 'graduates'" to a personal level, and re-affirms CISV's place as an organization of inclusion.
While some of the topics discussed definitely are somewhat beyond the regular realm of a typical JBer (like me!), frig man, who doesn't love learning? What better way to learn?
Aren't barriers and exclusive practices overcome through critical thinking, discussion sharing, and open ended questions? Wait, isn't that what were trying to do here?
Aren't these discussions a fundamental part of what it means to me a CISVer? In questioning how or organization works (or doesn't...) are we not moving towards are more inclusive future?
There is no doubt that CISV devils is by definition, exclusive. But so is anything else you could think of. But not in a negative sense. A child must be taught to discriminate between different colours, shapes. etc. But it is when hatred and prejudice is infiltrated into the teaching of discrimination that it becomes negative. The discrimination within CISV devils is needed to ensure that there is some structure. Should there ever be tension, negative comments against an individual etc., that is when your exclusivity factor would become critical.
Thanks to the lovely monitor however, and all the wonderful CISVers interested in this 'project', I don't think its due to become an issue anytime soon.
I guess by exclusive I meant that it really is just for CISVers, and those with a slight knowledge of what is going on. Although it is ridiculous to think of such a characteristic as the discussions being about CISV as exclusive, that is the definition. (From what I understand- I could be wrong; I am a lot of the time...) I was trying to point out that we can't get too wrapped up in definitions; it’s the applications and interpretations of the terms we seem to be discussing.
I hope I didn't define it as discriminatory, I belive that this page is anything but.
I hoped that cleard things up?
hello everybody!
okay ive MIA for a little while as some people might have noticed (sorry dear old jb :p )
I am no veteran ijb person or whatever but i do believe that any comment (as stupid as it may be... beware of whats coming up now :p ) is of use. Anyway, after all thats been said i dont really have much to say apart from the fact that the name "devils" as well focused and correct it may be, seems to be bothering a lot of people... The "re-branding" might be a consideration....
Cheers to you all and hopefully we can have a chat about all this at the AIM!
hey again sorry if im like spamming or something...
i just re-read a comment and i really have to say that i do NOT think its a good idea to move devils to the friends page. as Nick said it's a pain in the arse to get into that page, and personally, i never log-in cuz its so annoying.
Also, to get this discussion back on track, i also disagree with proposal #13... i mean the name suits beautifully bla bla bla as has been said, but putting it on the friends website is a baaad idea. In my opinion anyway...
Were this webpage to stay easy-to access, as it is now i would definitely have a line or two to add every now and then.
Cheers
So there is a motion on the table of evaluating the possibility of eventually considering to start a process of Rebranding of CISV Devil´s?
Interesting...
I like CISV Devil's I think we should make t-shirts, have a special salute, because what Nick came up with here is in fact a lot of what happens at IJBCs, at AIMs, at local JB´s, National meetings, a lot of unofficial talk, strong criticism and from all that a couple of good ideas arise and end up making a huge contribution to the organization.
With that being said, I think this blog is as exclusive as any of these conversations, if you want in...you buy everyine a round of beers.
Cheers!
Thanks for all the support, but of course also for the constructive criticism.
There seems to be somewhat of a consent regarding the name "CISV Devils", and I'd like to challenge that:
Is CISV Devils really offending? I checked and English-German dictionary and discovered at least 10 idioms including the word "Devil". The word is also used in the name of a number of plants, animals and even a meteological phenomenon. Devils is also part of the name of a ton of sport teams I know.
I also just read over at Wikipedia, tha the devil is understood as the "the central embodiment of evil." Obviously one needs to understand, that only a cynical person can name a website with an evil name - and, in fact wanting the best for the organisation. I agree that there is a risk of misunderstanding here for non-native speakers. But explaining this on the "about" page, I think is a better solution than rebranding.
Furthermore, I would like to ask those of you agreeing with this "renaming" part of the proposal above ONLY, to ask yourself, if this is the only compromise you are willing to make, and in fact you don't care much about the name.
Finally, I wonder, if I should be writing this at all, and we should focus more on the content of this website, than on the name - a suggestion that should be applied to the CISV rebranding discussion just as much.
Thanks for reading.
Hi all,
Some great comments so I won't repeat, but I say keep the name CISV Devils. Those for whom the name offends simply need to educate themselves on the context. I think everyone in CISV is relatively we'll educated; surely we can use a term as common and well-known as "devils" for this site. Cross cultural communication is a two way street. One culture cannot always be bending and accommodating to appease people from other cultures who in effect are behaving in an intolerant manner. I believe we must respect the culture and choice of wording of the person who created it. There is nothing racist, offensive or disrespectful in the name.
Do not make this a part of Friends. As soon as a site like this becomes co-opted by the very institution it was designed to question it loses its validity as the "thorn in the side." It is a very positive thing to have a forum for thought provoking and controversial discussion.
There is no room for "hurt feelings" in an intelligent discussion forum where people respectfully disagree. You post, you'll have those who agree or disagree. Get over it.
I think CISV Devils rocks, and I really appreciate the outside of the box thinking that goes on here. I would think it would take a lot of courage to start a site like this, so kudos to you Nick!
-A CISV Senior.
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