Proposal #45: Children living happily...
I propose to change the name of the CISV-Song into "Village-Song" and limit its use to villages only. This means that it would be inappropriate to sing it in any other program or on any CISV-Meeting internationally, nationally or locally.
Rationale
The song starts with the words "Here in this village".
Respectfully submitted , Eli (GER)
40 Comments:
...then Seminar Camps should be renamed "CISV-Song-Weaning-Camps"?
Ok, seriously...I'm not a particular big fan of the CISV song, and every time I have to sing it somewhere I get an akward feeling. The CISV-logo, the song, the Doris-Allen-mania...all this stuff makes CISV seem like a sect...at least to me.
I LOVE IT!
Really, I think that even though i don't like to sing the CISV Song (usually take it as an anthropological experience) - i think it kind of plays a part on the brainwashing experience a Village is. It sets a routine and perhaps even a sense of purpose (?) to those activities. It's cool.
However, yes - I agree with Nick and i think that very often this attitude of "merging" camps with meetings; and goals of one with sect-style behaviour (that, yes, might be nice for some people that has difficulties in remembering their experiences) is not really helpful for anyone.
Though - playing Devil's Advocate on the right website - I would say that perhaps doing this kind of silly things might help to avoid completely unattaching the administrative and the "camp spirit", "camp part" of CISV. But.. do we want that? Besides this argument has been used many times for quite exclusive decisions, does it really help? Or does it only stop us from being a more effective , efficient and useful organisation?
Hm...
In terms of "sect" like behaviour, I don't think the song has a huge deal of bearing. The other elements that make up "the culture of CISV"--the exclusive vocabulary, the insularity, the jokes and games considered ubiquitous--I would say are more likely to cause negative reactions from those new to the organization. A song, to my mind, is a relatively harmless ritual that actually is less likely to alienate compared many other things that are part of CISV. Many groups have songs: schools, countries, and probably many of the youth organizations that one could vaguely compared to CISV.
That being said, I agree with the proposal--the song is about VILLAGE. It represents a small facet of what the organization actually does and aims to do. Some must get confused when they come to local events for the first time and hear the song."Different race and different land...here we live and eat and sleep"...wtf?
To me, it's not the element of having a song that is dangerous, it is singing this particular song in the wrong context.
haha. I forgot that this was my "profile photo"
...I wonder if that discredits my argument. Does it qualify as "Doris-Allen-mania"?
Just for the records:
If we have enough support to this idea here, we might turn it into a motion.
: )
ps - now that alex mentions it, I think we should work on finishing all National Anthems too.
I have the solution for this problem, Yes lets change the Cisv song to the village song, but we in CISV we all like to sing and a song that everyone knows and gets it, creats some kind of a union. SO I propose, could some one with another song that represents the all CISV organization.
(not that i'm aplying for the job, because me writhing skils as you can see are not the best)
LOVE
Eli - I love you! For the past AIMs I already felt the urgent need to visit the toilet when the 'mass' was about to form a circle and send kisses around. I see the sense of it (also educationally) in a Village, when the lyrics are talked about with the kids, etc. But why does it have to be repeated in any other setting? My guess is that it's nostalgia, which is psychologically understandable but still a bit sad. There are so many facets of CISV that are great, not just Villages and not just this song. Let's keep it with the Village-kids and find other means of identification, where the content does not contradict the context, in the rest of the organisation.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nic said...
definately not a new song... just imagine the decision making process on that one. It took long enough to agree to 3 words never mind a whole song.
You can get rid of it as far as I'm concerned. It is only part of the brainwashing experience becuase we all know it to be there. I don't think village participants would complain about the absent song they never knew about.
Can we also stop holding hands standing in a circle around the flag pole?? I understand it is nice to say hello and goodnight together but is the flag pole really necessary?? Why do we need an object or a ritual?
These things to me are very Alien, even when i was in scouts I didn't have to sing to a flag.
As for national anthems, you can take that as well. Mine combines the two things i disagree with the most.
love
seems to me that you guys aren't very sentimentle about ur village experience?
when you think about the flag time at camps, maybe it isnt a fond memory for you. but it is for me, and i wasnt even a deligate at a village, i only went as a JC
who cares if u feel embarressed holding someones hand or singing in public, isnt cisv about accepting that? isnt it about learning to be tolerant and realising that not everyone has to be exactly the same to get along..
sure dnt maybe you dnt enjoy the song and dnt think is has relivance but the truth is, it is relivant. it may only have lyrics about a village, but isnt a village the foundation of ones life within cisv? isnt cisv about learning thru the things we do and different rwaces coming together and seeing one another points of view?
arnt there things from our childhoods that we should all re-learn and remember every now and then... dnt get rid of the song outside of village, you'll only be letting people forget... i'm not saying is has to be sung at eery meeting or everyday, but it still needs to be there, it has it's place.
i don't like the cisv song. too silly, and specially too LONG. I think that in the worst scenario i could live with a compact version of it.
two other things also scares me about the song:
- first, i don't know if that's the right information, but i've heard that this song was already "the song" in the first village! isn't it another psychological trick of phd dr. doris t allen?
- second. since we've been elected executive board of cisv brazil we stopped singing the cisv song in the meetings. and guess what? the people who got more upset wasn't the kids, the leaders or the juniors... but the parents, who had never been in cisv camps.
what i must conclude is that the cisv song is one of those traditions with no meaning at all that we just keep on doing because it was already there when we arrived in the organization.
Ok, a few things here.
Firstly, I disagree with changing the song. Just because the first line mentions 'village' is not enough reason to make it exclusive to villages, or get rid of it alltogether. The rest of the song explains the ideals of CISV pretty well, albeit in a village setting. If we were to change it, what word would we replace 'village' with? Community (too long) gathering (too sect-like) Assebly (too political) Fraternity (too sexist) Clique (too exclusive) Society (just doesn't work) Neigbourhood, Area, Locality, Circle, Faction, Town, City, Country, World? CISV started in villages. I think its good to remember that.
Secondly, I think we should continue singing it whenever we like. 'Village' does not just mean 'this camp, at this specific time'. It means all CISV activities, local, national and international.
Also, as rebuttle to some arguments: The CISV song may not make sense to people when they first here it, but the more it is sung, the more meaning that people attach to it. Just because some think it is causing an exclusive, sect like mentality does not mean that other people do. I certainly don't. And yes, for many people (including me) it is nostalgic. But that isn't a bad thing. For me its about friendship, and doing something as a group. I have never seen anyone excluded who did not know the song. Or any other riutals we have.
Thirdly, I feel that by singing the CISV song exclusivley at villages we are excluding CISVers who haven't been on a village (and there are quite a few of them around). Currently the song is instantly recognisable to any CISVer no matter where you are. Its a global form of idetification. (And this is true with more then just the CISV song. Kiitos, certain lullaby song's are so very CISV aswell).
And fourthly, the idea of a sect is that it is deliberatly exclusive. I do not see CISV as being like this. CISV is inclusive, and not knowing our rituals is not going to prevent anyone from joining. But knowing, and learning rituals makes CISV actually feel like it is something that you can physically be a member of. You have to physically participate, which means that you are aware of what you are doing, and what you are being involved in. Participating in rituals allows us to feel like we are participating in the organisation itself.
Ultimaltley, I feel that individual countries should be able to decide when and where and if they want to sing the CISV song.
Peace, Kate P, Perth, Australia.
maybe you don't feel excluded if you don't know the song but want to sing it, but you certainly do feel excluded if you do know the song but don't want to sing it.
also this is not only about the word village and it wouldn't make the song any better if we changed that word to something else. i totally agree with nick on the whole sect thing. when i was 11, i didn't even understand what the song said. yet i sang it. it could have meant anything. that's definitely not cool.
to me the song does not represent what cisv is about. but since it's been established that "building global friendship" is what we do, we should just scream these words at some point during our meetings. at least it's quick :)
i think thats awful. its a part of cisv, and has been traditionally for quite awhile. yeah it starts as " here in this village" however i dont feel that it really matters. its tradition, and it doesnt take away any aspect of camps, in fact it adds to the experience. Its cisv. and shouldnt be changed. it is 5 minutes everyday of your cisv experience.
The proposal is not about taking it away from the Village. It makes sense there, if properly used by the leaders (i.e. discussing/translating the lyrics). However, I find it always awkward when a group of adults stands, at an administrative meeting, in a circle and sing that here in this Village you may see some children happily playing. No kid is around and it is certainly not a Village.
One could argue for the positive and negative aspects of traditions. Some are certainly better than others, but still: just because something is a tradition it means that it has to be kept.
You know guys TUPAC once said in a very famous song of his : "Some things will never change".
I think although the Cisv song starts with village..then cisv started with a village in usa and let me just remind you that CISV is an abreviation to children's international summer VILLAGES...If you wanna change the CISV song than we would have to call it Children international summer camp (CISC!!!) or summer internchange(CISI!!!!) and so on...
Who's with me?!?
A) If people need the song to remember their villages then their villages were failures.
B) We are, in fact, no longer Children's International Summer Villages - but CISV International. We left the acronym behind already - let's move forward why don't we?
C) Ritual and tradition have a place. This whole discussion goes to the core of whether we believe in doing things because they have always been done, or because of the deliberate purpose of the act to contribute to the work we are trying to do.
The words of the CISV song WERE changed before and guess what? no one knows it now (I don't count) Same with the CISV logo that changed before this time around. These are cosmetic changes so long as we have a clear idea of our purpose that is separate from the traditions we have. The CISV spirit isn't - and shouldn't be - based on these rituals.
i think the cisv song has become a symbol for all the cisver, even not everyone knows it by heart.. maybe we should leave it or maybe change it a little bit..don't you think?
I wouldn't go anywhere near 'changing a bit' after the re-branding process. It took us 3 years or so and hundreds of insults to make the logo a bit more round and a bit less fuzzy. In a way a process in which new songs are composed and than people around the world get upset about it and then we take the same song as before but we sing it in a different harmony could be quite funny. However, I think all those emotions and all that energy could be used differently as well.
I would go for the original proposal! Keep the song as it is and keep it where it belongs - in the Village.
The CISV song in my opinion is not just about ritual. It explains most of the ideas and goals of CISV.
One may not like it for a thousend reasons, but it´s part of the CISV, it´s part of the memories of every child, and every adult that were once in a CISV camp (Village, Summer, Seminar,...) It´s where all the camp, without excluding anyone, all together they say good morning or good night to each other.
The idea of "Village" in my point of view doesn´t exclude summer, seminar camps, Youthmeeting or Interchanges' Mini camps. The idea is exactly of a village, where the people in there "Live, eat and Sleep. Talk and laugh and sometimes weap." and so on...
Yes, the song was changed once, but actually were just included "all the Nations" instead of just those 11 that were in the first camp.
Taking it out from a camp is not moving on, is not "changing" cisv. It is transforming CISV in another thing!
TRADITION - The word tradition comes from the Latin word traditio which means "to hand down" or "to hand over." It is used in a number of ways in the English language:
Beliefs or customs taught by one generation to the next, often orally. For example, we can speak of the tradition of sending birth announcements.
A set of customs or practices. For example, we can speak of Christmas traditions.
However, on a more basic theoretical level, tradition(s) can be seen as information or composed of information. For that which is brought into the present from the past, in a particular societal context, is information. This is even more fundamental than particular acts or practices even if repeated over a long sequence of time. For such acts or practices, once performed, disappear unless they have been transformed into some manner of communicable information.
Some people might have had bad experiences in their village and whenever they hear the song those bad memories would come back to them. Some might even have another experience related to the song. For me the CISV song reminds me more ofthen of my seminar camp than anything else.
There are tons of people in CISV who never went to a village or never will go and still they sing the song as something dear to them that was passed on to them from other generations.
So if there would be a great discussion topic about CISV. And a person who went in a meeting in 56 and calls themself a CISV, would u reject that person by saying CISV wasn't the same thing back then so i'm not the CISVer you are? I'm something different?
Besides the actual word "village" in the CISV song doesn't it embody the exact same thoughts we have about CISV activities in Seminar, YM or Interchange?
The CISV song defines the exact same ideology we have today. The lyrics of the song describve the exact same means we have today for a succesful CISV activity. Don't we sleep, eat, live together for a common goal? Don't we all sweat the same way? Don't we all work for global peace, or intercultural friendship even if we are attending a village, a seminar or even just an administrative meetings? "stamp the present with an act, there to make our dreams a fact"? Isn't this statement valid for all cisvers, independent of age, sex or approach towards the common goal?
Why don't we change our national anthems? I'm not fighting the same enemies talked about in my natioanl anthem as the people who lived in this country 300 years ago? I'm not even listening to the same music as they were so wtF? Why not make a new electro national anthem for Romania?
Sometimes CISVers are too picky on details. Yes it talks about the village, but it is a song passed on to us from a remote village activity in 51, a song that embodies our beliefs and goals even today.
If some have a problem singing it in administrative meetings, but don't you work in administrative meetings today with people coming from different sides of the world to come closer towards the common goal?
So the song isn't representing all CISVERS? i think it does? Should we renegate our appartenance to the village just cause we never went to a village or cause we think this song is about villageS? This song is about so much more than a village activity.
Should i change my nationality cause i think i am not the same as people living up north? cause we have different traditions, different dialects or maybe even different physical features? No
We have something together! We share a common past! My forfathers and the forfathers of my moldavian neighbour were at a point brothers. And we sing this anthem as a tradition remembering where we came from.
I think it's the same with cisv. Even though today CISV is something so much bigger than it was in the 50s, we still share a common past with those people and we still work for the same goal they were working.
We all have our heroes, more or less, and some people started the doris allen mania just because she might represent one of their heroes, the same way Stefan the Great used to be a hero of my country in the 14th century. So people are free to consider Doris their hero today, since we are not forced to consider her a hero or have a cult of her personality, people who want to cherish her they can continue doing so while others will just be thankful for what she started and can continue working on a common goal.
Nic started something big with cisv devils. We can thank him or we can cherish him. But we are free to do what we want. If one day i will see a kid in my JB walking around with a t-shirt saying "Nic is my idol" i will smile and say yes.. nic is great he started something nice here, i don't have to follow the trend and were the same t-shirt.
Not everybody sings the CISV song these days and we shouldn't impose that they don't sing it or that they do sing it, we should let them choose for themselves. This way i know there is a chance in the future in 20 years that a kid from my JB might still learn the song even though he will never know what a village experience is.
Don't start a motion towards it, don't impose other what to do, just stand up at the next Aim and say i don't feel like singing the cisv song now, and others will join. But talk for yourself or in your name don't try to erase a tradition that has been there longer than you, let everyone choose for themselves.
P.S. Sorry for the long email. I am not a big fan of the CISV song but i appreciate its value.
One Love
Alin
I read all the comments and I see that most of us agree on the fact that the CISV song does somewhat represent cisv's goals and main ideas..
But since many people dislike this song outside of the village camp then solutions are:
- Motion to leave the song JUST for villages (Very tough because MANY people are too attached and nostalgic when it comes to that song.)
- Change the song (but i can assure u it will take a decade)
- Leave the room when you see that a circle is forming and people are crossing hands.
-CONVINCE ur fellow ADULT cisvers that it is not the appropriate context. (Personally what i would do.)
....
don't see any other solution.
Love from Lebanon
x
So far i always went for the 'leave the room option' when I saw a circle form. But it somehow feels bad because you know that people think that you are a traitor or something like that (probably more mildly). A motion to reduce it to Villages will cause big emotions at AIM and to change the song will do the same, just taking longer. But I love the discussion. I have the feeling that this is a rather long one. And it's 'just' about the Song. At the proposal for the content-audit there where hardly any comments (I think none). Interesting, isn't it? How much emotions influence this.
I´d say that emotion influence in 90% if not 100%.
That doesn´t mean a bad thing, on the opposite.
Just a question. I've never been to a Seminar camp, but in my summers, interchange and Youthmeeting it was always discussed between the participants specially in the summer camp, during the camp meeting. And they always decided to have the Cisv Song/Flag Time. I think it´s also discussed in the seminar camp, isn't it?
So I think that beside Villages it´s already optional. Am I wrong?
Then another question, if it is optional, why the participants always, or most of the times, choose to have it?
Back to the begin, I´d say that there is the emotional part from thouse that were once in a Village, the idea that it´s a CISV tradition, but also that it´s part of the CISV, of the camp, and they should keep it.
Then why not just stop being a coward, come out and say what u really want/think by saying u don't think it's appropriate to sing the song in the administrative meetings and thus u don't want to sing it, or for the more shy/"ethical" ones why not discuss this issue with others at a certain event and convince them not to have it(we all know that by this point we are all good at convincing). The worst that could happen is being turned down, so what?
What's with all this hypocrisy. If u managed to get to the AIM level than u should be and probably are a pretty good lobbyist for ur own ideas...err...for CISV's sake.
Why make it so official by talking about motions, changing, "auditing"?!
I personally am not a big fan of the song, i am not crazy about singing it too often.
Still, just because i am too old(read "experienced") and too tired of hearing the song for the 100th time, doesn't mean that i shouldn't let others make up their mind about the song(at whatever event) and hear it at least once.
What's with all this in depth analyzing about things which aren't a priority at the moment.
Haven't u learned from past years experience that every time we become militants of changing things which shouldn't really be changed at this point, everything turns into a mess which doesn't really improve the organization, with all do respect.
So maybe u should take all that time and energy and put it into smth which is more important, rather than small things just to keep busy.
Oh and also ppl should assume their responsibility for all the ideas poured on this page and the comments attached to them, cause not all of them are viable and not all of them need or should turn into smth concrete.(think about that!)
Oh and one more thing, if u guys are so tired of the song(to begin with) did u ever think that maybe u are not really representing anymore the interests and voices of all the other juniours that elected u or are counting on u(and "juniours" doesn't come down to just NJRs, there's a whole world beyond that)? Then u should take a break go to a camp see if u get the spirit back, if not just step down and leave the spot to others with more enthusiasm and energy and maybe with better ideas to spend their time and energy on ...
Respectfully,
A very concerned CISVer
I think this is a very interesting discussion.
First of all - It's important to point out that this is not about "I like the song or I don't like the song"; as it became clear from the middle of the discussion on (and in particular from Alin's contribution) it's about if traditions are helpful (to keep us attached to our roots) or damaging (to make us move forward). I think here it's a bit of both, though some people like to look at the past, and others to the future. That's also normal (and healthy, to a certain extent).
But most interesting for me here is to see lots of people saying "this is CISV"; "don't we sleep, and eat and cry together" kind of thing and feel 0% identified with this. Besides finding this in hundreds of other experiences (from school trips to vacations with friends), I don't think this is what CISV is, and that doesn't make me a less a CISVer than any of you. And no, the solution is not always to go to a camp and "feel the spirit".
People tend to take their own experiences and project it into what the organisation is. Do you think CISV is what you felt at your village or seminar camp? Please consider - maybe it isn't.
CISV was created as a peace-building strategy, not as a club-for-great-experiences; and sometimes we forget about it.
Personally, my Village was the most meaningful experience of my life and I never left the room because of the song - i find it amusing.
But it's important to realise CISV is not only what happens on the programmes - it's much more.
ah!
also, i find amusing to see an anonymous comment saying
"Oh and also ppl should assume their responsibility for all the ideas poured on this page and the comments attached to them"
heheh
the things of life.
Love to you all!
I really enjoy the fact that an ANONYMOUS comment was made that "Oh and also ppl should assume their responsibility for all the ideas poured on this page and the comments attached to them"
Also enjoying the discussion in general.
haha
great minds think alike, sar.
: )
I agree completely with what Alin wrote! Well put!
Love,
Ioana
Hey everybody, thanks for some really smart points about this proposal.
First let me remind you about the purpose of this website: Some proposals that appear hear are so damn good, they probably could also be submitted as real motions at an AIM (or national or chapter board meeting). Others, like this one here, are just an idea, a notion, a criticism phrased in the words of a proposal to stimulate thought.
Reading between the lines of some of the comments, it seems as if we are to decide whether to keep the CISV song or not. Crap! We should focus more on why the CISV song exists, and where it has its place.
For mee personally, after reading the comments here, I tried to figure out why I do dislike singing the CISV song (btw walking out on it it not an option, really for me):
CISV is much more than just the village (I went to 2 of them!). In fact, I believe it is one of our weaker CISV programes. I enjoyed my Seminar camp and IPP, and they were so much more (or better: different) than "eat and sleep and weep". Also, working on different national and international boards of CISV has been one of the best and strongest learning experiences of my life.
For others CISV is still mostly about the 11-year-olds. The romantic Allen-esque idea of creating peace by bringing people from different continents together to create peace. CISV, however, is (and should be much more) moving in a different direction: Peace education on a local, community-connected level. Peace education on an intercultural and interpersonal level. Seminar Camps, Mosaic and IPPs are the strongest and most potential programmes of CISV, I think.
Can somebody come up with a song that covers that area of CISV, please? If yes, I'd give it a try to enjoy singing it.
Cheers,
Nick
So I've never participated in a village, yet I've been in the organization since I was 10. And I had never really considered that "Here in this village" was such a big deal until right now.
Sure, when we sing it we may not be at a village. But my favourite times singing that song are at our National Board Meetings and mini-camps.
Also, I have never heard of adults singing the song without Juniors present.
At my seminar this summer, we sang the song once. Maybe twice. It was a shame. It could've brought us a lot closer together.
I've also had some activities where we choose to break down the song and talk about what it means. Then we sing it, but rather than saying "Village" we say, "Here, in CISV, you may see ..." It works just as well (make sure you get the rhythm right), and we don't have to worry about anyone freaking out about it not being a village.
Think about it
Julia
THANK YOU KATE FOR THAT GREAT COMMENT!!!
Every time I sing the CISV song I get an awkward feeling too. And nearly all people older then 13/14 feel the same way about it, but I always am ready to sing it whenever there are 11 year olds in the circle.
I take the CISV Song to be like our anthem. If you get into the details of every national anthem of each country, or each school anthem or song or alma mater or whatever you want to call it, you may find that it's non-fitting to the context in many of its lines. Yet these people sing it each time they have to, and do it proudly and voluntarily, and they don't complain about it. That's how I think of the CISV song when I sing it. It's something that makes me feel proud of being a CISVer, it's the pilgrim of my very first CISV experience and taught me a lot when I was 11. So in respect to that song I still sing it.
I think if CISV now wants to write a new CISV Song, it would be out in summer 2012 if not more :P It's sooo hard to write a new CISV Song since each word has to be considered ten times!
Bastian, those people on the board meeting, what are they meeting for? Are they meeting just to chit-chat and drink coffee and catch up on how each one of them has been in the last year? Or are they working for these 11 year olds who are going to enjoy the many villages everywhere and be included in CISV like we were at some point? Yes, I know, they are not working only for the village. There are many other programs. But all came out of this very idea of the village.
Let's analyze the song:
Here in this village you may see
Children living happily
So far it does sound village specific…
Yet I like to consider it this way: the song actually refers to two villages: the camp it's being sung in and the world as a whole, where children should live happily…but that's not my point here…let's proceed…
Different races and different lands
Here we come to understand
One another's point of view
Learning through the things we do
How alike am I to you?
The last five lines are applicable to any CISV camp, meeting, experience etc…
Here we live and eat and sleep
Talk and laugh and sometimes weep
Here we share our hopes and dreams
Build a bridge across the years
Could it be a bridge that links people from different ages? People as young as 11 and as old as 100 in one organization? Yeah it could. Yet still not my main point..
Sow a seed and plant a tree
Beneath whose branches there may be
All the nations gathered free
That our children so may grow
OUR children… let's do Basic English here. Who does the OUR refer to? The third verse of the CISV song is meant to be sang through the voice of the older generations, talking about those 11 year olds enjoying villages in the summer.
In a world we did not know
Sharing all they have to give
Learning how to love and live
In our hands the future lies
Seize the moment there it flies
Step the present with an act
Dare to make our dreams a fact
So the last verse of the CISV song is why this is not village exclusive! If it is to be village exclusive, we should eliminate the last verse. So when I hear the last verse sang by these people in that meeting, I know that they still believe in the goals CISV has been built on, and that they are reminding themselves of that through the song.
Yes they do look silly standing there and sending kisses and holding hands. Yes it feels awkward. But we still do it, and sometimes we hate singing it but we do anyways. At my Seminar, we said we wanted flag time every morning. We sang the song on the first two days and then forgot about it. Yet in the camp meeting everyone was so EMOTIONAL about it and wanted to REVIVE that CISV TRADITION. I didn't want flag time at my Seminar. But I went for it anyways, knowing that it won't last a few days. And it didn't. But the thought of paying respect to that song that is the base of CISV camps was what got us to do it.
Nick, I totally agree about Seminar being the strongest program in CISV at the moment, and would like to hear that song too, but would someone be actually able to do it without being shot at and the song altered by everyone? :P
I said too much already.
Hani [Lebanon]
Hi everyone,
now I feel I should say a littlebit more about why I wrote this proposal since the rationale was very short. Of course I knew it would be provocative for some, but still I think I had some good reasons to do it and the comments show me that I was not so wrong. Thank you all for contributing! I really like the discussion and I think some very good points were made.
It was not about whether I like or don’t like the song. I think singing the CISV-song in villages is a good thing: Everybody standing in a circle in the morning and at night, giving everybody the possibility to see everybody else, you say good morning and good night to everybody in all the languages. And you can think about all the other villages and that they are doing just the same thing at the same time (relatively), which is a spiritual bond between them.
I think it is more a ritual than a tradition. But outside of villages I think it doesn’t work as a ritual. Some in this discussion used the expression „brainwash“. And this is where my concerns about those rituals have their origin. Some of you pointed already out that we sometimes do things only because they have always been done, and I think that’s not a very good idea.
Taking it as a ritual outside of the village, seeing it as out anthem or hymn: I always get the feeling it’s meant as a profession of faith in CISV – we sing it because we believe in CISV. But to me believing in CISV is nothing spiritual, it is not believing in a higher power, and it can’t be expressed or evoked by singing a song. It is mainly what I myself do with and within CISV.
For many people, it seems, their CISV-experience is determinate by CISV-song, Kiitos, Pony Song, and Lullabies. I had way more impressive and meaningful CISV-experiences without any of those. So for me, they don’t shape the culture of CISV (the culture of villages: yes, they do). And I seriously think that it does not make any sense to try to re-live great CISV-experiences by repeating those rituals. Actually, I think it does not really work. And maybe this attempt to create a good group and a great experience by repeating those rituals sometimes stand in our way of having a great experience. We stick to them, and forget to move forward (e.g. in a Seminar Camp).
I think sometimes rituals are a trap. They pretend to create a certain atmosphere, but I think they don’t. We create the atmosphere if we are open-minded enough and ready to contribute to the program. But it does not make sense to sing the CISV-song and wait for a group-feeling to establish itself. I think it won’t.
Why is it not possible to just not sing the CISV-song while everybody else is singing it? Did you ever stay sitting at your table while everybody else did Kiitos? I think the idea of the CISV-song includes that the whole group sings it.
I think it’s important to think about those things once in a while. But, seriously, I think we don’t really need a new rule about where and when to sing the CISV-song... but I’d be curious about the discussion in the board of trustees!
Wow, what a discussion.
Ok, so I have to say I'm mostly in favor of the CISV song. I don't like keeping traditions for the sake of it, but in this case I find the CISV song to be a very valuable one. Like a lot of other people I only sang the CISV song once at my seminar, and I was ok with that because it simply didn't seem like exactly the right place to be going CISV song crazy.
At villages though (I would go as far as to say all programs involving younger delegates) I think it has a very important place. I remember as a JC being so happy to look around the circle and see all the participants who spoke absolutely no english joining in. Even if they didn't really know the words or their meaning they could sing along to the tune and after while maybe pick up a line or two, and be very proud of it.
I also saw this sort of inclusive feeling being nurtured at my Summer Camp this past year- for one part of the day everyone is together doing exactly the same thing, which is a very nice feeling in my opinion.
The only time I wish I could take a trip to the washroom instead of singing the song (no matter what programme or group of people I'm with) is when you are in a public place with lots of non CISVers around. I have to say one of my worst memories of village when I was 11 is standing in a busy square in Bergen singing the CISV song... uggg, I'm getting a bit sick just thinking of it.
xo Kalenne (Vancouver, Canada)
Well, it's amazing to see a topic like this, Ban CISV Song from another camp than Village ? well if i can remember wright CISV song it's optional in other camps than village, you can choose to have it or not in your camp meeting, whell so why ban it ??? whell ok so let's kill the sect and came didectorship (or how you wright it :P ) by making a law.
Anwsering MArcos, do you really think that CISV doesn't go forward becouse of this song, or becouse we only have to discuss things like this (becouse ppl are embaresed of having to be in a circle and sing it ) instead of deciding things more meanfull that really makes CISV evolve.
Well I really think that CISV Song it's not just the song but "the all rotine", CISV is a peace organization that whants to prove that countries can leave toguether in one place, that join alot of countries in a circle olding hands and sending gestual mesages while singing the "CISV song", saying good moorning and good night to everybody, what is the problem of this ??, Whell if we take this off let's take the rotine of the olimpic game where ppl all around the world make a circle around a FIRE.
For me the CISV Song it's what "the rotine" represents for CISV and for it goals, not what the first frase says. Well if for you that's a rotine let's get rid of the activities, the lunch, the siesta well they are rotines too.
Well just to finish, just make your point in your camp and don't be lazy, just becouse you don't whant to argue with others and prove your point and go to the source and ban it.
Big hug to the worl
Iago Sousa (CISV Portugal leader)
i personally have participated in most cisv programmes but what has made me learn the most was being and working in the jb.
its a very different level of experiences then being in a camp but it can be as intense and powerful. i have sang the cisv song in jb maybe 4 or 5 times, on the aim or board meetings (where i didnt quite like it) which makes me believe that the cisv song is not a good tool to measure the quality of a cisv activity.
i do agree that a village or even summercamp might be the right place for the cisv song, to see and hear everyone twice a day, poking other people and stepping on their feet, i must say i thought that was fun when i was that age. but now, when not being around 11 year olds its not so fun anymore. singing the cisv song on the aim has never been a very group bonding or heart warming experience for me...you are kind of obliged to do it. and maybe it shouldnt be like that.
If still in doubt,
check this out!
i think is so stupid do it...the village song is cisv!!!is the cisv spirit...what other song we can sing other this????....cause i love cisv i do the village and i think the village song is more beautiful than anything
I agree with Alex's point that a song is harmless and me personally didn't feel like entering a sect when I was first acquainted with CISV rituals like the song. However, it's true that outsiders who are sometimes invited to CISV activities like Open Days or Open House (my chapter has it to attract new kids and leaders) might find singing about sleeping and eating together in a circle with tangled hands might find it weird.
So this brings me to Manuel's point. I think CISV song should be strictly used at camps where it's more relevant in terms of context. I don't care if there's the word village in it if it's sung in SU or SC, the kids enjoy singing it (isn't singing a big part of CISV?) and they have enough knowledge to know that the word village is there for historical reasons within CISV. So, for all other activities outside camp,would be nice if we have another "primary" song, one that describes more CISV values instead of describes what happens at camp like the CISV song. So there.
All in all, we all know we're not in a sect and we're in it for the values we love right? ;)
<3
Post a Comment
<< Home